Black IDS podcast. E3 transcript with Artie Mack

Black IDs Podcast Ep. 03: Artie Mack 

We talk to Artie Mack, artist, deaf/HOH activist, TikTok educator and muse, about All Black Lives Matter and disability accessibility in the BLM movement, and a lot about the afrospiritual art of Artie.

Show Notes

Get to know The Artie Mack 

Learn more from this episode 

Support the creation of Black IDs Podcast and support Kat on Patreon! Share this episode with your friends and family and follow Kat on Instagram (@katharen.wiese) for more updates. 

Got feedback for Kat? Let her know at katharen.wiese@gmail.com. Stay tuned for Kat’s upcoming solo exhibit at Kiechel Fine Art in April 2022 that will feature work inspired by the stories in this podcast. 

Read the full episode transcript below. 

Transcript 

[0:01] Kat: My name is Katharen Wiese, and you are listening to the Black IDs Podcast, a mini series exploring who we are, why we are, how we are. 

[music comes up] 

This series is a part of my broader artistic practice as a visual artist. I started interviewing folks who I'm depicting as a way to bring agency back to the subjects represented in my work. I'm tired of seeing Black figures used as political propaganda or objects. And so this series is a way of refocusing on individual experiences and expressions among Black diasporic people. All of the interviews in this podcast correspond directly with art I'm generating from these conversations and the relationships I have with the people themselves. Work from the series will be in my first large-scale solo show at Kiechel Fine Art in Lincoln, Nebraska, on April 1, 2022. I would love to see you there. If you want to get a sneak peek of some of the things I'm working on for the show, and photographs of folks from the podcast, you can follow me on Instagram at @katharen.wiese. My first name is spelled a little weird. It's K-A-T-H-A-R-E-N. My last name is W-I-E-S-E. You can also find my handle, website, katwiese.com and transcripts for the podcast in the show notes. Thank you, Gabriella Parsons. I am so excited to share a conversation I had with Artie Mack, someone I deeply respect and admire. Artie is a visual artist and TikTok educator and advocate for the deaf and hard of hearing community who they also identify with. So let's jump right in. 

[music fades out]

[1:43] Kat: Looking at your artwork, I think that you have told me already so much about yourself through your art making. So a lot of your questions have a relationship like to Kemani and these different characters you've made. So that's kind of how I've structured the questions. Intersectionality, overlap, and crossovers was one of the ways that you said you're defining your identity, and there's a quote on your Instagram. At first I didn't know who Grand Poppy Rosa was because I was going from beginning. You know, so I was like who is this character? But they're a Black, deaf, like African American like grandpa. Right? And, um, you quote, okay, and you I want you do you want to just like Introduce yourself a little bit? Maybe that's where we'll start. Yeah, that might be better. [laughs]

[2:35] Artie: Sure.  [laughs] Okay. Well I go by… My name is Artie Mack. But my birth name is Arthur McWilliams, the fourth. And part of the reason I like to go by Artie Mack is to sort of break a lot of the… Not necessarily to disrespect my fathers before me. But I think a lot of expectations and stuff get imposed on you when you're named after previous people. And you know, just like, your name is Arthur McWilliams the fifth. And so part of why I've really tried to present myself as Artie Mack is to not only formulate my own identity, but to sort of break away from how often I'm associated with my family. Not because I have issues with my family, but because I think in Black communities, especially Black families, there’s a lot of pressure to live up to what's been done before you. So the reason why I've kind of dropped the fourth in my name and just started going by Artie is because I want to be seen as an individual and not someone who’s carrying my family's legacy, but creating my own legacy. And I was born here in Lincoln, Nebraska, and I've lived my entire life. Graduated from UNL in 2014, but just now figured out what I wanted to do with my life, as far as art and education. Right now I'm just really passionate about finding my voice as a Black deaf creator. And just doing what I can contribute to the world. Because growing up, you know, I've always been into art. I've always been into animation and stories and fantasy. And I've never seen deaf people represented. And so that's a huge part of why... That's so much of what my art is. I love comic books. I love stories. I love to write. And so my artwork has a lot of story-like qualities. So anytime you look at my art, you know there's a story behind it. But yeah, that's a little bit about me. Was there anything in particular you want me to talk about?

[4:49] Kat: Yeah, can you just sort of give an overview of the components of your creative practice? Because you have your visual art, your education you're doing on TikTok. And then now, I don't know how long you've been making food, but your food is beautiful. So do you want to just talk about these different creative parts of your life? 

[5:08] Artie: Yes, yes. For the food, I've actually been working with food pretty much my entire life. I kind of have a feeling about the creative process. I feel like regardless… Well okay, from my experience, when I look at art, painting, drawing, mixed media, whatever. And then I look at food, working with different ingredients, bringing them together. And then I look at even, like I love to dance, and looking at rhythm, body movement and then choreography. To me, the creative process is just literally bringing together different components to create something new.  And I feel like it's translatable throughout different mediums. I can be sitting here working on a painting, and it helps me think of a recipe. And it's weird to connect all of those things together. But I really do believe that creators have the ability to sort of, like, I don't know. Life is full of ingredients, you know what I mean? So that's just kind of always been the way that I look at it. So if I want to paint something, you know, just thinking about different colored acrylic, and mixing different colors, and knowing what kind of combinations you're going to get, is very similar to working with food ingredients, and experimenting with ratios and blending them together and this is what you get. And it changes every time. And that's what I love about it. And dance, you know, just how we move our bodies. And you know, you do this, and you do this, and you’re just bringing these different ingredients together to create this dance, you know? So for me, I think the creative process is really just about having these different components, these different ingredients, and bringing them together. And for me, I live in my head a lot. I have so many stories that are constantly going on in my head, I can't keep track of them all. Like, I have book ideas. All of my characters that you see on my Instagram, to me they're like real people who are living in my mind. So for me, the creative process is just literally trying to get what's in here out there.

[7:18] Kat: So your TikTok seems like it might be functioning a little bit differently than like your cooking, or your art making. Tell me about using TikTok as a platform. And what is it for? Is it for you? Is it to educate other people? Like what is your relationship between educating people and creating this content?

[7:37] Artie:  That's a fabulous question because I've never really stopped to think about if I’m really doing this for others, as opposed to for myself? When I research, when I collect information, I kind of see taking notes the same as like gathering ingredients. And so here I go again with the ingredients. But when I make my TikTok videos, a lot of times I script them out first. I write them, I take a lot of notes. I look at my notes. And I say okay, how do I write a quick 60 second piece? And I practice it and I make sure it comes together. And research is just gathering information about the world around you. And to be able to put things together and to make those connections, it's kind of like a high for me. It's like, when you are able to understand institutional racism, when you are researching why government work likes this in society, or why human behavior is like this. When you can take notes, and have it all before you, the next step is to bring it together and do what you can make sense of. And it's kind of like creating an art piece in a way. And so for me, TikTok, I've always been very passionate about learning history about really exploring sides of humanity that doesn't really get represented, you know? Things that we didn't learn about in school.  Things that we don't see covered in the media. The marginalized experience. I feel like with my artwork, with my passion for knowledge, and how I can bring these things together, I kind of have an obligation to do this. And so TikTok for me is really just developing my craft as an educator. It's totally experimental. All these diagrams and stuff that I draw, that's how I think. So I'm literally just sharing my thought process with the world around me. I think that most people are visual learners. And that's something that gets beat out of us in the school system. I think so much of how we learn to process information, so much of how we learn to observe, to perceive to take in information is very conditioned by Western imperialism, colonization, all of that stuff. It shapes so much of how we interact. I'm trying to break that down, you know, because I've never been able to work in these institutions. I've always stood out in school no matter what. And it's because my brain doesn't work the way that everyone else's does. And I'm at a point in my life where I'm okay with that. And I feel that people are responding to what I'm giving them. So that's really all TikTok is for me.  TikTok is just me, you know, I have books, I mean, I have notes just like laying all over the place all the time. And I'm just bringing them together. I just want people to care. You know, I just want people to feel passionate about this. I think there's so much about the human experience that we don't know how to articulate. And I find so much gratification of being able to do that.

 [10:39]  Kat: Cool. That is cool. It's so amazing to talk to you, honestly. And you being you, so immaculately articulates you making space for yourself is the best thing for humanity. And like that's true for all of us, us making space for ourselves and being ourselves and being individuals. Like you said, being Artie Mack and not Arthur McWilliams, like that is you saying, this is me. And I'm going to celebrate myself, even when you don't celebrate me. And I think like all of us need to hear that and need to acknowledge that is the experience of almost every human being on this planet. So just Yeah, yeah, I just just snaps. 

[11:19] Artie: Absolutely. 

[11:21] Kat:   Okay, so let's jump into some of the more... I feel that people have a sense of who you are, of what you're making. So I dug around in Artie's Instagram. Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing with your Instagram specifically? And like this universe you've created. Because you have this sort of fantasy, this fantasy world, and then these different people. So can you just give like a little bit of background on your world?

[11:44] Artie: Yes, absolutely. I mainly use my Instagram just to post my artwork, you know, and explore different things in my art. And in October 2020, the previous October that we had, that's when I started drawing off these prompts. And it started off completely random. But this year I knew I wanted to all be connected. I didn't want to just do like a random drawing every day, I wanted it to all be one thing. So the story behind this art, and I'm not gonna give you too much. It follows a 12-year-old hard of hearing girl named Robyn, and she lived in a generationally deaf family. So like many people in her family are deaf. And they all have the ability to do magic. And she is told that she does not have the ability because, like me, she's on a spectrum. So she's not profoundly deaf, but she's also not a hearing person. And this is a very important subject that I explore in my art because there's so many of us who are on the spectrum. Whether it's deafness, or any other type of disability, we sort of fall in between the cracks, because it's invisible. And because we don't have enough representation, and we don't fit in neatly into a box. So much of our experiences get locked up. And so the whole focus in the story, it's a coming of age story about this 12-year-old girl who belongs to this beautiful magical family and their history goes back for 1000s of years. So like this picture that I showed you earlier, they are all the ancestors, and they are the ancestors of that family. And they all have many different abilities, but the main focus of the story is Robyn and her eight-year-old cousin Kemani, is that little boy you see in the picture. He is mute and he's deaf. And the two of them bond and realize that they have access to this magical word that allows them to learn more about who they are and their family ancestry. And Robyn, who's been told her life that she doesn't have magic because she's hard of hearing, learns that she actually did and she does.  It just doesn't look like everybody else. And that's what she has to learn. And so this whole story is just you have this family but the way they're unfolding in my head, I actually have the true history that goes back to Africa and it just shows you all the magic of their family and how they've kept it in their family for generations. And it all comes down to this young girl in today's times who's struggling to learn about who she is and finding acceptance. And there's a lot of fantasy in this because I've always wanted to see deaf people, Black deaf people, represented just in anything you know? Cartoons, comic books, like anything. Anytime I watch a TV show about vampires or werewolves or witches, I'm like, what would this be like for a deaf person? You know, like, how does a deaf person cast a spell? You know, if they don't talk out loud? Do they do sign? Absolutely. So that's why I got a lot of signed magic in this story because that's how they perform spells and do magic. And so it's really about bringing something new to the table that nobody's seen before. I'm really excited about this story, like, it's my whole heart. And my goal is, I mean, I'm creating more pieces, but I'm also writing the story. I want this to be an animated series. I want this to be accessible to families all over the world. I want parents and children to come together and just watch the story because it's so beautiful. And I'm excited for it. 

[15:35]  Kat: Yeah, I think part of what's so amazing about it, like you said is it's wrapping together these contemporary characters who feel very much like people we grow up with. They look like us, they have hair like us. So they feel really familiar. But then there's this ancestral part too, where it's like tying together the contemporary experience with this mythology you've created. And so you've done a lot of deep work building it generation to generation where it has this really consistent feeling, this really resolved world. And it's really impressive to have even done that, to accomplish that. 

Artie:  Thank you. 

[16:11] Kat: Okay, so I actually want to jump to a different question, which is question two, under endlessly dreaming. I really love the story about Auntie Time. She's dancing. You talk about how she can't stop moving, and she can't stop dancing, and she can't hear anything. She's like dancing to her own music or whatever it is that she's hearing. And as she's dancing, she kicks over time in the sands of time, like, the sun is like following her. And this is why the world spins. So you've created a creation story. And the creation story is created by this sort of accident. And so I see this ongoing narrative in your work of both broken things, and disabled people being like the source of life, and the source of new worlds, which is so it's beautiful. That's beautiful. So I just want to know, for you personally, or just thinking about your world, like how has your deafness opened up possibilities for you? And how is your relationship to your deafness changed throughout your life? And because there's kind of like a parallel I've seen between these characters. They're like a reflection of your experience in a way too. And so I'm curious about that moment, does that mean something to you specifically?

[17:28] Artie: You know, I never would have thought of it. And I'm actually really glad that you picked up on that. Because I think that may have been something that I was working through subconsciously and not even realized it. When I look at the relationship between my deafness and how it changed in my life, and just in that piece in particular. I'm looking at it right now to refresh my memory. I think when I reflect and think about my relationship with my deafness, especially in that piece and just in my art in general, it's sort of like a breakthrough, almost sort of like that breakthrough connection. Because when you think about the piece and how time shifts when the glass has been broken through her movement. And through her rhythm. I think what it was really about, is kind of what we were touching upon about claiming space. The broken glass to me is just sort of representation of being kept inside something, and once you sort of break that then things can start moving. And I think, but for me, I was just very much struggling to accept myself. Because I've always struggled with my deafness my entire life. It's always been something I've struggled with, not because it made my life harder for me, but because of how I interact with people and people making life harder. And when I think of these creation myths, I think it's just really for me, saying enough is enough. I'm not like I'm proud of being silent. The physical sensation of Sister Time or Aunty Time moving, is really about not caring about what's going on around you, and just being able to break free. And for me, in that picture, there's this sense of freedom because I love to dance. And I know that a lot of people think that deaf and hard of hearing people can't dance, that we can't listen to music and we can't respond to rhythm. I would argue that because of our relationship with sound, we're actually a lot more sensitive to vibration and impacts. And so, of course, we feel it, you know, it's a very intense thing for me. And so I think, going back to what I was talking about, like the cooking and the education and the dancing, I think that's just how I feel alive, I think. Yeah, really, when I create these mythologies and all of these Black women who are shaping the future for the contemporary characters. I think it's really about creating space, I really do. I think it's just about... When I work through my art, I'm trying to create space. And for Sister Time, she's creating a path for this deaf Black narrative. And I think that's what I was trying to do. I think that's what's going on there. 

[20:20] Kat: In my own personal understanding of the creation myth, just for my life, like I was raised as a Christian. And I think within Christianity which permeates like most of American society and politics, there's this idea of the perfect thing, the perfect God, the perfect person. And I actually don't think it's, I don't think it is a Christian belief, I think it's a toxic belief. Because in Christianity, the true definition of perfect is not is not faultless, it means complete. So to be perfect, is just to be complete. And so to say that is to say, disabled people are perfect. Like that's to say, people that are flawed are actually perfect, because they are complete. 

[21:07] Artie: Yes. 

Kat: And I think like, that's kind of what I'm seeing in your story is you're presenting people that we stereotypically would call imperfect as like, they're perfect, they are complete, they are creating life. And like, that's what I really love. Like you, that's a great contrast that you're creating. 

[21:24] Artie:  Thank you, thank you. Because I think even when you look at the broken glass imagery. And if you want to make sort of like a parallel between traditional beliefs of what disability means, and how people often times associate it with being broken. And that's not it at all. Like I see that brokenness as sort of breaking out, you know? And I think that matters. I absolutely agree. Like the perfect thing, it is toxic and it has permeated so much of our society. So for me to go back and create mythologies with people who are typically not seen as perfect, that is important to me. All of the ancestors that I've done so far for the most part are deaf Black women. And that's where the magic comes from. Like for me, Black women, they literally are the backbone of society. And so that's really what I was kind of working through, you know? But yeah, thank you. I'm glad that you... I really like that perspective that you brought up because it's now making me think about some other things.

[22:33]  Kat: Oh, cool. Okay. So Grand Poppy Rosa is one of your characters. And so he's the grandfather of Robyn, and Kemani, and these different children, right? 

[22:45] Artie He's actually not their grandfather. I don't know why I picked that name. But grand Poppy, as the title is actually not a grandpa. I'm weird with names, but he's actually the great uncle, I believe. Yeah, he's the brother of one of the great grandmother's. I'm sorry, I know I'm like all over the place. But yeah, he is a grandfatherly like figure. But anyway, yes, continue.

[23:12] Kat: So now we know Grand Poppy Rosa. You quote him saying, "your love and compassion towards all your ability to speak, and sign makes you a bridge between worlds, so long as you trust in yourself, you'll always find your way home." And I wanted to know if you could tell me more about this bridge building? What does that mean for you? And like, what tools are you using to connect your different communities? I think you've touched on this already. But like, one thing I am thinking about is specifically your frustration with the Black Lives Matter movement, and how being a part of the Black community and then being a part of the deaf community, those intersections, or their failures to intersect.

[23:53]  Artie: So where I was going with that. With Robyn being hard of hearing she has to, you know, she talks out loud, she's oral,  and she also uses sign language. And in her family, they actually forbid talking out loud. They only want everybody to sign language. And that is reflected because there are deaf communities that are very like no speaking out loud, you know, sign only. But that doesn't work. That actually causes a lot of communication problems, and there are a lot of deaf people who can hear a little bit and who do talk out loud. And so there's a lot of backwardness in her family that she has to sort of overcome once she realizes that she needs to embrace both styles of communication. For me that was very reflective of me realizing you know, I can't pick between the deaf community and the hearing world. I'm literally in the middle and I can go back and forth. There's so much power in being able to do that. Just that the power of being biracial and being able to another lot of frustration, and it's very complex. That becomes a very complicated issue when you are half Black, half white. When you are on the spectrum, you know? But the ability, the power of being in between is that you also have the opportunity to communicate, and sort of bridge gaps. For me, a very Black, deaf, heard of hearing person, to be able to sign with one community, speak out loud with another community, gives me power to move between more worlds. It gives me the ability to empathize more. It gives me power to see things that one might not be able to see and the other one can't see, but I'm looking at both and I'm going "aha." I think when we look at the state of the country today, and how is so divided by politics, how it's so divided by political parties. All of that is a part of an ongoing institution so that, the way that our brains work, we're so focused on compartmentalization and separating everything. But the intersectional experience doesn't allow you to live separately, you have to live with all of your multiple identities, you have to live with all of these overlaps. And so what's happening here is that Robyn she's coming into her own power, and she's realizing, I can hear, I can sign, I can speak, I can do all of these things. Maybe my family, maybe this doesn't look like my family. Maybe this doesn't look like the majority of the people around me. But that does not mean I'm not valid. That does not mean that I don't have a place to exist. I wish I had somebody to say that to me growing up. I wish I had a model. I wish I had people who didn't make me feel like I didn't matter. You know what I'm saying? Because that's what she's going through, that's what she is feeling right now. She's just a young girl who absolutely loves her family. And she knows her family history. And she's so bright and she's full of life. But people are constantly making her feel like crap, because you don't fit over here, or you don't fit over here. You know, what are you? Being an in-betweener, or being a hybrid,  somebody who is in both worlds, is a very hard thing to do. But it's also extremely powerful. And I think that's what I was trying to emphasize here. You can't choose– sometimes you can't choose because you are both. You can't, you know and you shouldn't have to sacrifice. You shouldn't be expected to do that because that's not who you are. That's what this whole thing is about. You should never be expected to fit into a box. 

[27:44] Kat: Yeah. 

[27:46] Artie: I wanted to touch up on you mentioned some of my frustrations with Black Lives Matter. 

Kat: Yeah. Oh, yeah. 

[27:54]  Artie: Yeah, that was my biggest issue. Like last year, when we had the George Floyd protests and James Scurlock in Omaha. Just considering that we're in a pandemic right now. And with Black Lives Matter, you know, we're all wearing masks. And that's really hard for people like me to communicate. And it's really frustrating in Black communities with how oppressed and marginalized we are, that deaf and disabled people are still constantly forgotten about. And so that's been my biggest critique of this whole movement. And that's why this story is so important to me. Because, you know, we're Black people, we're part of this movement, but we're literally being left out. And so it makes me angry because I want to fight for my people, but my people are not fighting for me. And so it's this weird space to be like, we're Black. We're a community, kind of. You know? It's a weird space to be in... and that "kind of" I want to get rid of that. We need to start holding ourselves accountable. We had to come out with "All Black Lives Matter" after "Black Lives Matter." The "all" part should have already been implied up first. The fact that we had to come back out and say, "Hey, by the way, all Black lives," just shows the parts that are really so backwards. And we have so much work to do. 

[29:18]  Kat: There was a young man who was killed by an officer, and he was disabled. I think this was last year in November. I don't remember his name, to be honest. But in looking at that situation and studying it, I think it's something like more than 50, like 60 or 70 percent of cases of police violence are against people that are disabled. 

[29:25] Artie: Yep.

[29:45]  Kat: Yeah, so it's like, you're absolutely right. Like we can't talk about Black Lives Matter. We can't talk about police reform without talking about the fact disabled people are being disproportionately targeted by police officers. And people are also really reporting disabled people, like they are a harm or whatever to society when they're just being themselves. Like, we have a problem as a culture and we have a problem with our system. 

[30:15] Artie: Yeah, absolutely. There's so much work to be done, but the conversation has to start. 

[music comes up] 

[30:20] Kat: So the person I was talking about was 23 year old Elijah McLain, who was killed by paramedics and officers in Aurora, Colorado, in 2019. Thank God, it was just announced that all five officers and paramedics were charged with manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide, while some still face additional charges. So I'm glad something's happened. It's like two years too late, and it never should have happened to begin with. If you don't know about the whole situation, I highly encourage you to go read about it. Because it is a harrowing illustration of how deeply we are failing our differently abled peers and friends and family members. Both as individuals by calling on people just because they look different, or they look sketchy. Seeing somebody who wears a mask is not like, warrant enough for you to call the police on them. If they're literally not doing anything wrong. Like don't call the police on people for literally no reason because you feel uncomfortable. Your discomfort does not warrant someone's arrest. And that's a problem. Of course the larger problem is that our criminal justice system is completely fucked. So yeah, that's the larger issue. I think we need to abolish the police. Yeah, let's reimagine that shit. Let's bring some radical imagination to that shit. 

[music comes up]

Kat: Did you grow up within a spiritual practice? And like what shape does your spiritual practice take now because there's like a bit of like, Afro spiritualism like Black spiritualism, in your work.

[32:23] Artie:  It's funny you say that because I grew up so I never really had any sort of spirituality or religion growing up. My family is Christian.  I've never really associated with organized religion. But I'm just now starting to get more into the idea of  spirituality, like African spirituality, stuff with my ancestors. I've always felt very connected to just the elements. Like I said when I was talking about the earth, I have a very strong connection to the natural elements around me. That's where I take a lot of my creativity from, that's where I take a lot of my peace and comfort from. I think just always been so overly imaginative, you know? I've just always had a great imagination. And I'm always creating these stories in my head. I'm definitely influenced by a lot of what I see, but as far as my relationship with spirituality. I don't know. I feel like I haven't really found anything that existed yet that I really connect to. I've never really dived too deep into it. I've never really allowed myself to get really into any sort of religion or spirituality. Part of me is kind of a bit afraid to just because I know a lot of organized religion had done a lot of not okay things.  And also Christianity is kind of a complicated thing in my family. I feel like a lot of deeply rooted trauma. And a lot of our generational trauma, especially in Black communities, does come from some of the issues with certain religions that were imposed upon us. And so that's why I'm very inspired to go back to Africa and maybe research some of what people believe before colonization, before slavery. So I think that sort of my motivation is getting back to my roots. And that's why it's very important for me, like with my story, to go back to Africa because that was sort of the birthplace of it all. And so I think also I use my art to sort of help me get on this path to find out what I do believe. You know, I think my art is kind of teaching me and I'm shaping my art, just kind of put one thing out together. You know, but I think so much of what I do is because I want to believe in something bigger. And so it is all just a process, you know? 

[35:01] Kat: Your stories very much feel like the result of inner spiritual work.  Like it feels like the manifestation of something very deep.

[35:10] Artie: You know, I think that's just... I don't know if it's kind of a weird thing to say, but I've always thought I've had the sort of deep wisdom inside of me, even as a kid. And it's funny. My mom would say that no one could ever play with me as a kid, because I would have all my toys out and the stories that I had in my head. Nobody could keep up with me. They was just like, "We're gonna let you play by yourself." [laughs] And I was totally fine with that. Because like, I have a whole universe in my head.  That was at five years old and even to this day, it's the same way. It's never really changed. So I feel like, I don't know, maybe I'm connecting to something bigger. And I am the universe in motion, so maybe that's where all my stories are. 

[35:11]  Kat: I have a question about Kemani. 

Artie:  Okay. 

[35:59]  Kat: So I'm curious about what kind of worlds Kemani might lead you to specifically. So Kemani is Black, deaf, supernaturally powered. He can make portals with his hands. And like, I'm really curious.

[36:14] Artie:  Okay, so Kemani is funny because Kemani's power is very connected to Robyn's power. It's just that they aren't aware that what's happening. Because Robyn, you know, she doesn't realize that she had magic inside of her. But some of the things that we see happening are the result of her, she just doesn't know it yet. So her and Kemani together... So Kemani can dig his way to other worlds, and some places they go to are the mansion that were created by previous family members when they were children. I think one of the ancestors had the ability to plan her imagination to life. And so, she would recreate these secret places that they could go to. And you know, they passed away, but some of the magic that they left behind is still there. And so Kemani and the kids, what they are doing is that they're going to all these places that some other family members have created when they were younger. It's kind of like The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe kind of feel. Like you know what I mean? You have a bunch of kids and then they find a secret portal to another world. But Kemani can jump to places that are just outside of our realm of reality. So he can go to the mansion where you have creatures that are not even human, but some like cartoony animalistic fun creatures, and they can go there and they play. But because of Robyn, and her connectivity to her ancestors, when they go to places where their ancestors have been, where some of the old old ancestors, like Sister Time, for example. They can travel to some other places where their ancestors created some of the worlds around them. And a lot of it is because Robyn's mind and her heart are very connected to her ancestors. And when she's with Kemani, that magic allows them to travel to those place. So it's very much based on Kemani's abilities to create portals and then Robyn's connectivity to where she wants to go, and that works together to take them to the different places. Yeah.

[38:41] Kat:   Cool. Do you follow the work of Octavia Butler? 

[38:46] Artie:  I know who she is. I have not, but I've been meaning to get back. I think I've read a few of her stuff back in college. But I know she's a fantastic writer and I've been meaning to get back. Did you have something in mind that you were gonna suggest? 

[39:00]  Kat: I feel like this whole idea of like radical imagination, or afrofuturism. Like Octavia, she was there when it was all happening. And people start thinking about that. But she was doing something a little I feel like a little different from what you were doing. So she was creating these worlds. And it was almost a way of imagining if we keep going in the direction we're going, if we we continue to not take care of the planet. If we continue to be the capitalist driven society, what is the natural conclusion of these behaviors? And so she was almost like a prophet, right? Saying like, this is the dystopia, right? This is the dystopia. But then there's another there's like the second part of afrofuturism, which might be the utopia. And so it's like, I'm really curious, in these Black creatives like yourself, who are sort of center on joy, and having this sort of radical imagination that says, what is the Black utopia? What does that space look like? 

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[41:54] Artie: The term “radical imagination” where exactly did that come from? Is that like an Afrofuturistic term or just kind of like, or were you just using it? [laughs]

[42:09] Kat: [laughs] I did not invent that term. I hear it in a lot of activist spaces. I hear it in a lot of Black activist spaces when people are talking about Afrofuturism. Okay, the Afrofuturism Lab, or Afrofuturist Lab, I know I’ve heard them use that term a lot. And they do such cool stuff. They use technology, virtual reality, to kind of bring these imaginative ancestors into these different situations. I’ll send you that later, I think you’ll appreciate it. 

[42:46] Artie: Okay, awesome. Thank you. 

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[42:52] Kat: So I couldn’t find a standard definition of radical imagination. But it is a term generated within Black activist creative and academic spheres. Robyn DJ Kelly, a scholar on the topic of Black radical imagination, arts and activism, made a statement about progressive social movements and said that, “they transport us to another place, compel us to relive horrors, and more importantly enable us to imagine a new society.” I think what’s key in this framing is both the tension between both the reliving of historic injustice and the imagining of a world in which that injustice is not possible. So hence the tension between utopia and dystopia in Afrofuturism, which is a vital component of it I think. 

[43:42] Kat: I don’t know if I have any more questions. I just feel very inspired and excited to make an image of you. 

[43:49] Artie: Oh thank you! [laughs] 

Kat: [laughs] Thank you! Thank you for just taking the time to talk with me and share who you are and what you care about. 

Artie: Yeah, absolutely. 

[44:00] Kat: How can people connect with your work and where can people find you? 

Artie: So I do have a LinkTree that has my Instagram, my TikTok, my email, different stuff I’ve done for the community. The Journal Star articles, I was just in the Daily Nebraskan. My LinkTree is @theartiemack. And so that is one way that they can contact me, yeah that’s got all my info. I usually just tell people to contact me on social media. 

[44:32] Kat: So do yourself a favor, people listening, and go follow Artie on his LinkTree @theartiemack. Follow him on Instagram. Just bless yourself. 

[44:43] Artie: I was, I have to know, for the Black deaf anxiety part, what question were you going to ask for that?  Because that part brings up Kemani. 

[44: 54] Kat: Mhmm. Yeah, I’m just going to read that because I think you said so much in that post that I don’t have to read. So Artie was introducing Kemani and he made this really beautiful portrait of Kemani and there’s like clouds behind him, and this is just a little snippet of what he wrote. “Kemani is an eight-year-old, deaf, mute, Black boy, with the power to travel across worlds who goes to stay with his distant relatives of generationally deaf magic practitioners after his birth mom is unable to care for him. Mani will grow up in a world where Black men are discouraged from showing their emotions. However, being that Mani doesn’t talk out loud or sign, and hasn’t learned to read or write, emotions is all he has. When we strip away…” And then there’s an ellipsis, because Artie says a lot in between there too about academia, and the way that Black boys and deaf Black boys and disabled Black boys are left behind. So that’s kind of what’s happening in between this and what I’m about to say. So back to the quotes. “When we strip away our words, and signs, and let our guards down, we see each other for who we are. Our imaginations run wild. Much like cousin Kemani’s. Children, especially deaf children, have rights. They have voices. They have bodily autonomy and deserve to be treated with respect. That’s my hope for the future.” 

[46:18] Kat: Ahhh, I’m really interested in what you were saying about emotion, both as a Black man and as a deaf person and just a human being. Can you just talk more about emotion and what bridged things for you? Or what has that mean to be able to express what you’re feeling? 

And has that always been easy for you, or is it something that’s been a challenge? 

[46:39] Artie: You know, I’ve always been a very emotional person. But I’m going to stop here and say by emotional or highly emotional, what I mean is that I just experience a lot of emotions. I think we tend to associate that with being a negative, or somebody who is dramatic. And there’s nothing negative about that. And that is very deeply patriarchal as well. As a Black man in a family of Black men who traditionally do not show emotions, for me to be extremely sensitive, was something that was challenging for other people around me, especially my father growing up, who is very much reserved, stoic, believes everyone has their place. And here I am this person who isn’t quiet about anything and I don’t care. I think just having that, being sensitive, being really empathic toward others, is literally what has allowed me to develop this language to do everything that I do. It’s why I’ve been able to connect with other people. It’s why I’m such a good artist. It’s why I’m everything that I am. I think that when I look at people like Kemani, or when we look at disabled people who don’t use language in the way that we’ve normalized, it forces you to have to go back to what it means to be human. And I think that’s ultimately why especially abled bodied people have issues with disabled people. Because we remind you that you’re in a body, you’re in a body that can change anytime. You’re in a body that tomorrow can be disabled. And when that happens, what are you going to do? How are you going to adjust, what are your alternatives? And we don’t think about that. But when you take away language, when you take away institutions, when you take away all of that, we are left with basic human emotion. We have to start from there. It always comes back to empathy. It comes back to what you are feeling. And for me, Kemani is just literally the pure representation of somebody who… He is not institutionalized. You know? He doesn’t have a way to defend himself, he’s completely vulnerable and he’s pure. And that’s very important for us to protect, you know? We need to protect Black children.

[49:15] Artie: And so, emotions are the driving force behind everything. You know? Emotions are why we do things. And with today’s movements, we’re seeing a lot of people save the world, but they’re not doing the emotional connectivity, they’re not sitting in their feelings. They’re not addressing their own biases and their prejudices. You know, that stuff takes a lot of emotion to work through. Emotions are how we process, they’re how we grieve. They’re how we sit the things that are ugly about ourselves and say, okay I want to change this. And so that’s really what I was trying to go for in that post, was just to remind people that emotion is how we connect as humans. And I think if we can get back to that, I really think that we can tackle ableism, racism, all these ideologies that have kept us divided. We need to go back to who we are as people, in our bodies, in our emotions, coming into our emotions, that’s what life is. 

[50:22] Kat: You said it. That’s a mic drop. Yeah. [laughs] 

Artie: [laughs] Thank you, thank you. 

[50:27] Kat: And I think that touches on what you were saying about pure, as being something that you hold close to yourself. Is that all you meant by that, or is there anything more you meant by, like what is the genuine? And where do you find the genuine, you know? 

[50:43] Artie: Like when I was talking about pure? 

Kat: Mhmm.

[50:46] Artie:  It comes with… when you let your guard down. You know? It comes with realizing there’s just so much institutionalizing in every human being. That it’s almost like we’re not even real people anymore. You know? We’re performers. It’s almost like we have become algorithms, and we react, we respond. We do all these things we’ve been conditioned to do. But when you take away that conditioning, when you take away those things you’ve been taught, when you take away those instructions on how to behave and we behave naturally, I wonder what that looks like? You know, and for me I think that’s where the pure genuine stuff comes in. I think we’re so aware of what we’re doing all the time, and how we’re saying it and how we come across that we’ve lost ourselves in that. When you take that away… when you can’t get on social media and write a bio that has your whole description of what food you eat and everything, when you can’t do that anymore, and you actually have to be a person, what does that look like? You know, when we can’t just say, hey you want to know about me, okay go read about me online? No, no, no, no, no. When you have to do that face-to-face, when you have to be emotional, when you have to be truthful, that’s where the genuine stuff comes from. That’s where the hard conversations start. And unfortunately, I feel like we’ve conditioned ourselves on such a mass level, that we have a hard time doing that. Like we don’t even like to have face-to-face conversations with each other anymore. You know, we’re not even comfortable even touching each other.

[52:25] Artie: I feel like we’ve gotten so far away from our humanity. And so for me, being pure, being genuine, it’s about emotions. It’s about taking away these false institutions and looking at okay, so what do we have left? And where do we go from there, you know? Where do we go from there? And that’s where the genuine stuff comes out, is when you can’t rely on other fake crap to like get you by, when you have to take away the institution, and the conditioning, and this is what we are left with, that’s who we are. 

[52:58] Kat: Thank you so much. You have such a generous spirit and you are such a gift. And I feel very much like I have been gifted to talk to you and be in the Lincoln community with you, and hopefully be in solidarity with you. Yeah, I so deeply want to realize this dream you have of All Black Lives Matter. Like that’s my dream too, and we all need to take up that flag, All Black Lives Matter. So yeah, I appreciate you, thank you. 

[53:29] Artie: Thank you, I appreciate you. That means a lot to me. It’s hard to find that true connection, especially with other creatives, other BIPOC people, we need that right now. So thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. 

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[53:50] Kat: I love that Artie talked about himself as somebody that has a deep rhythm. Because I just feel his work and his art on a spiritual level. It’s just good stuff. And I have a feeling Artie’s going to be a muse for a minute. So thank you so much, Artie, for spending some time with me. We have some great reference photos we just took for his piece that I’ll be sharing on Instagram. And if you want to follow Artie and see all of his beautiful artwork, hear the amazing educational content he’s putting out on TikTok, he’s just at @theartiemack. Artie with an I-E. And Mack as in M-A-C-K. You can find that all in the show notes and his LinkTree. Some credits: music for this podcast was produced by Spazz Cardigan and the song is called “Garden.” Show notes and transcriptions were provided by Gabriella Parsons. Samuel Segrist did the audio mastering for this episode. And the podcast was produced and edited by me with help from my studio assistant and friend Kossi Kouakou. Support the podcast and my artistic practice by contributing on Patreon. You can also get a yearly gift of original prints, stickers, early access to merchandise and more, just click the show notes and it will all be there. Thanks so much for listening, and you’ll hear from me soon. 

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