Black IDs podcast. E2 transcript with Imagine Uhlenbrock

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Black IDs Podcast Ep. 02: Imagine Uhlenbrock

In this episode we chat with nail artist, creative entrepreneur and an important voice in the Omaha/Lincoln community, Imagine Uhlenbrock, about self-expression, self-care, business and Blackness. The Black IDs podcast explores the diverse identities of African diasporic people in the Midwest as a part of the larger creative practice of visual artist Kat Wiese. This interview is a part of a series culminating in an audio visual exhibition at Kiechel Fine Art in April 2022.

Listen to the full episode here. And read the show notes below. 

Show Notes

Get to know Imagine’s work 

Revisit quotes from Imagine referenced in this episode

Learn more about colorism

Learn about self-care for Black folks


Support the creation of the Black IDs Podcast and support Kat on Patreon! Share this episode with your friends and family and follow Kat on Instagram @katharen.wiese for more updates. 

Got feedback for Kat? Let her know at katharen.wiese@gmail.com. Stay tuned for Kat’s upcoming solo exhibit at Kiechel Fine Art in April 2022 that will feature works inspired by the stories in this podcast. 

Read the full episode transcript below. 

Transcript 

[0:01] [music fades in] 


Katharen Wiese: “What self respect looks like: living your truth and doing what you have to do to be your best you. What self respect doesn’t look like: breaking yourself to fit into a box that wasn’t made for you. March 26, 2017.” 

[0:37] Kat: That quote was from a Facebook post by Imagine Uhlenbrock, whose interview I’ll be sharing with you guys today. Imagine is someone I followed on the internet for a long time, like since I was in the very early part of college. And I was sort of just coming to an awareness of my Blackness, and also what my presence meant as a multi-racial Black woman, and what that space was. 

[1:02] Kat: As I was thinking about, you know, what is the history of my relationship with Imagine and what that has meant for me, it truly has been me being a fangirl, primarily. Which is probably part of why I was nervous about this. I realized kind of going back through the content that I was really excited about in 2016. A lot of it had to do with this new found awareness that I was having and that I was witnessing of Black consciousness and people that were conscious really talking about colorism and talking about all of these intersectional prejudices folks have. And Imagine was actually one of the first people I think that introduced me to this idea of colorism, which sent me on a journey thinking about what that meant for me and how it had benefited me. As well as the sort of violence that is entailed in being tokenized and fetichized as a Black woman. Her wisdom helped me unpack some shit, and I’m really grateful for that. 

[2:04] Kat: So I wanted to read a quote by Imagine on the topic of colorism. So this was taken from her Facebook page and I’ll be reading it. 

“Colorism isn’t cute. Colorism isn’t funny. Colorism isn’t a charming pickup line. Colorism kills. Colorism. A practice of discrimination by which those with lighter skin are treated more favorably than those with dark skin. If you put light skin above dark skin, and try to say, “It’s just what I like,” you’re doing yourself a disservice. You’re discounting your ability to think critically about why you like what you like. If your preferences are based on skin tone, dark or light, and hair texture, it’s a fetish. Racial fetishization: attraction based on skin color and racial stereotypes. It’s not flattering at all when a man says he wants a redbone with curly hair, and then tries to make a pass at someone who fits that little checklist of attractive qualities. It makes it seem like as long as women look a certain way, they are interchangeable, which is dehumanizing. Dehumanization: to deprive of human qualities or attributes. We live in an anti-Black and white supremacist world. Proximity to whiteness is a form of social capital when you’re taught from birth that white is right. Even if those words are never said to you explicitly, the message is around us all the time. Saying you love Black women, but only expressing interest in those that pass the paper bag test, feeds into the extremely destructive cycle that destroys the spirit of darker women.” 

[3:45] Kat: That post was from April 29, 2016. So Imagine has owned Just Imagine Nails since 2013 and she offers custom natural nails, gel, chrome, and so much more. I just sent her my favorite painting by Kerry James Marshall which is Untitled from 2009. And it’s this amazing portrait of a Black woman artist, standing or like sitting in front of her own canvas painting herself and there’s all these amazing lines and what not. So she’s making an abstract interpretation of that. [music fades in]

[4:26] Kat: When I was looking through the cards you made, I was really struck by, there’s not concrete words. Some people might go up to someone and say, “I am a Black woman. I identify with the artist community.” Like, they might say all these things. But yours are like values and affirmations and sort of almost guiding ideas for being. And I thought that that was really beautiful. So can you tell me a little bit just about the cards themselves and how you chose these ideas? 

Imagine Uhlenbrock: It was quite a process honestly. I got a deck of affirmation cards that somebody else had made. And I was like these are pretty cool, but these are, you know, generally pretty helpful, but they’re not necessarily representative of exactly how I feel, or what I’m experiencing, or what I would want to communicate with the world, or you know, the guidance I would give. They’re great for what they are, but you know, I can make some too, so I did. [laughs] 

[5:26] Imagine: You know, trying to figure out exactly how I wanted to format them and stuff was...it took a few months. I had the painting for the back of the card done first. The blue painting with the bay leaves, I had that done really fast. I just had the idea for it and did it. But creating and writing the affirmations, like some of them are things that my dad has always told me. So I put those on there, things that I have always said growing up. One of them specifically is like, I used to be a very anxious child. So I would use grounding mantras to bring myself down from the anxiety. And that’s in there in one of the affirmations. And the others are just expansions of the words that I use a lot. I wanted to take the language that I use in my everyday life, or frequently in conversation or in my readings with my clients, and be able to simultaneously expand and condense the idea. Expand the word and condense the idea into a card so that people can use it as a prompt for whatever they’re doing for a grounding technique, or journal, or you know, whatever they’re using the cards for. Or clarifying another card reading because sometimes I’ll layer them with my tarot cards to clarify the messages the other cards are giving me, the other tarot or oracle cards. Yeah, I painted all of them and I wrote all of them.  [music fades in] 

[7:06] Kat: You want to buy some of these beautiful affirmation cards. You can go to berrygodmuvas.co shop. That’s B-E-R-R-Y-G-O-D-M-U-V-A-S period C-O. And I’ll have that on the show notes. [music fades out]

[7:25] Kat: One of the words you had on the cards was paradigm. And it says, “Nothing changes if nothing changes, and I challenge myself to shift my perspective to support my growth.” How has your identity changed as a result of your growing perception of yourself? 

[7:40] Imagine: Yeah, a lot of thing really have changed a lot, especially in the last four or so years. I feel like a lot of people around 2014-2016 got really heavy into identity politics. 

Kat: Yeah. 

Imagine: And you know, weaponized our identities as a part of that. I mean there’s a lot of coming together that happened around that, but then it also… I feel like a lot of people got stuck in that, in identifying with their traumas. You know? Especially when it comes to Blackness, a lot of people are like… In defining Blackness, in my experience, because people are so quick to negate other people’s Blackness based on who their parents are, they’ll be like, “Oh well, you never experienced this bad thing, so you’re not really Black.” And I’m like, I don’t define Blackness by the bad things that have happened to me because I don’t associate Blackness with bad things. You know? So having to really get firm in that part of my identity. And separating those ideas of having an identity rooted in trauma… I’m not a woman because of all the bad things that have happened to me, because of all the misogynistic violence that has happened to me. That doesn’t affirm my womanhood. You know? Just like the racial trauma I have doesn’t affirm my Blackness. 

[8:59] Imagine: So shedding that, like letting go of compulsion to use past grievances to solidify who I am, that doesn’t work for me anymore. Like it doesn’t, I can’t go there anymore. 

[9:14] Kat: Yeah, I definitely identify with that as a multiracial Black woman. Like my dad is white and my mom is Black. I always identified with my mom more because I spent more time with her. Visually, you might not know what I am. So there’s this credibility or whatever, like what’s a credible Black person? 

Imagine: Mhhmmm. 

Kat: What does Black really mean? And there’s all these questions or whatever. Definition is like, we shouldn’t have to identify ourselves in relation to racial trauma because Black culture is beautiful. And we can talk about that and identify with that as well. And thinking about your identity in reference to… almost like joy or beauty… is really radical in some ways. 

Imagine: Mmmm. 

[10:02] Kat: And I see you doing that, too.  Really early on when I was following you on Facebook, you were talking about body positivity. Like uses of language that I see you criticizing, so the use of “queen” you were talking about hierarchies and the way that enforces this view of women where women are in competition with one another. I’m just really fascinated by your critique of language and hierarchies. Have you always been like that? Did you have an awakening where you were like, wow that’s really fucked up that we do that? What was that process like? 

[10:36] Imagine: Sixth grade, in an English class we were talking about language and the importance of language, and word choice when you’re writing. And there was a quote from some guy, I don’t know who. He said, “there’s only one way to say what you’re trying to say.” Or something along those lines. But that always stuck with me. So I try to say exactly what the fuck I’m trying to say and leave nothing up for interpretation. So being immaculate with your language and saying exactly what you mean, being extremely precise with your words really matters. Because a lot of people will use these coy, round about ways of speaking, so that people on the other end can assign their own meaning to it. And then when people see through the bullshit, they’ll gaslight them, you know? They’re like, “oh, well that’s not what I meant,” or “you’re reading too much into it,” or… all that stuff. But it’s like,  I know what you meant. I know because you used the words that you used. If you meant any differently, you would have used different words. 

[11:49] Kat: When I was reading some of your ideas about undoing these hierarchies with better language, I totally felt implicated. Because I had never thought about it. I had never realized, oh this is enforcing this whole way of thinking about myself and thinking about other women. Or this language is making me think about my body in contrast to other women’s bodies… it’s just so normal. It’s so normal to think about, unfortunately, to think about ourselves on these levels and on these tiers. It’s so deeply loving and dignifying the way you use language. And it makes me think about your whole practice as a creative person and as a business woman and making businesses that are really a celebration of self care and self love. What has it been like for you building relationships with other women and also having businesses that––or just people in general––but having businesses that are dedicated to self care.  You’re a part of people’s journeys, self care journeys, because of these businesses and spaces you’ve made. 

[12:56] Imagine: Ahhh, I don’t know. I just can’t help it. [laughs]  You know? Basically all I do is figure out what’s best for me, what works for me, and then share it with other people. That’s as simple as it is, really. Every product is something that I needed. I don’t make stuff just to sell it, or because I think other people will like it, or because other people want it, or whatever, or because it’s what other people are doing. I’m going to make the art that I like. I’m going to make the oils to help the conditions that I need. I’m going to make the soaps to, you know, work through the shit that I need to work through. [13:32] Just like I made those affirmation cards. I made those affirmation cards to work through what I needed to work through. And it just so happens that the shit that I’m working through a lot of other people are working through. So yeah, it’s interesting. I definitely want to promote a deeper level of self love, and encourage people to really get into learning themselves. 

[13:59] Kat: I was listening to a podcast. It was the Minimalist Podcast. It was months ago but they were talking about businesses and how some businesses add actual value, while other businesses market a value that doesn’t exist in their product. And so I think it’s really cool that you’re making these products that are, first and foremost, valuable to you, and then moving from there. 

[14:24] Imagine: Before I started making these other things, I looked for them elsewhere. You know? Cuz I always want to support other businesses. Things that other people were making just were not quite hitting right.  So I guess my niche is me. 

[14:40] Kat: Ohhh! I love that. Also, speaking about your niche is you, your name is so beautiful and I’d love to just know a little bit about… How’d you get your name? That’s it, that’s the whole question. And how do you feel about it? 

[14:56] Imagine: When my mom was pregnant with me, I came to her in a dream and like showed her how I was going to be. She was already seven months pregnant. Before that, she was like worried she wasn’t going to think of a name in time. So she was just going to make a mixtape with a bunch of lady blues singers, and whoever was playing when I was born, that was going to be my name. So I could have been Mahelia, or Coco, or Billy, or Irma. [laughs] 

[15:23] Kat: That is solid. That is really fun. So how do you feel about your name? Do you like love your name? Did you always love your name? 

[15:30] Imagine: Yeah, always. 

Kat: I love that. Okay, good. Because you should. You really should love that name. It’s a beautiful name. 

Imagine: Always.

[music fades up]

[15:38] Kat: You had one word that was ‘infinite.’ And the description was, “I transcend limitations.” Have you always felt infinite? Or has that been something you’ve had a journey towards? 

[15:50] Imagine: For the most part, I have always felt infinite. There are definitely times where my mind got kinda muddled. You know, just societal conditioning and stuff like that. Just internalizing extra bullshit that isn’t mine to carry. And those things turn into self imposed limitations. But when you identify that these things are self imposed limitations, or that any of these other limitations that other people try to impose on you are not even real… I mean, I’ve always said I can do anything I set my mind to.  I can do anything I set my mind to. So anytime I say “I can’t,” it really just means, “I won’t.” Because I do anything, I can literally do anything. Like, there’s nothing I’ve tried that I have not been able to do. 

[16:41] Kat: I love that. 

Imagine: Like, period. [laughs] 

[16:43] Kat: And I think it’s so important to have confidence and also to acknowledge what we want out of life. And I feel like, just like listening to you and kind of following you, I don’t know you super well, but just following you from a distance, it feels like you know what you want, and you’re able to be like, yeah I want that, I will go do that thing. [laughs] 

[17:03] Kat: What risks have you taken as a result of this confidence you have? And how did those decisions impact your life and your perception of yourself? 

[17:12] Imagine: I don’t even think I know what risk is… [laughs] Cuz I just do whatever I want. Like, things… I don’t know. I’ve probably done a lot of things that a lot of other people would probably be afraid to do, or worried about doing. And I’m just like, yeah I guess I’ll do that. That sounds cool for a Tuesday, or whatever. It’s just like random shit, like jumping on opportunities. A couple years ago, this guy who I met on Tinder invited me to go to Europe for two months, and I was like, okay. [laughs] Alright, let’s go. So I did, and it was great. I feel like a lot of people would definitely not do that. 

[17:50] Kat: Yeah, and that’s kind of what I was curious about… is like, the decisions you’ve made… Yeah, I kind of thought that you might be like, “risk, what is that?” [laughs] Are there decisions that you’ve made either in your life or your career where you feel like maybe, I don’t know, maybe you were scared, maybe you weren’t scared, but whatever it was, having made that decision to pursue something sort of shifted the way you thought about who you were and what you were capable of? 

[18:15] Imagine: I don’t know, probably. That’s probably happened like every day, and it’s just so normal to me that I can’t even think of a specific example of doing that. Cuz like I’ve tried new things constantly. [music fades up]

Kat: Boundaries. And on the boundaries card, you wrote, “I honor myself by saying no to things, people and situations that would deplete my resources.” Period. [laughs] I feel like that so beautifully describes the journey for a lot of people coming into adulthood in their early 20’s. I don’t know, that’s what it makes me think of personally. 

[18:50] Imagine: Mhmmm. 

Kat: How has your sense of boundaries either divided you or unified you from or with other people or groups of people? 

[19:00] Imagine: I am considered to be a notoriously difficult person because of my boundaries. Because I don’t let people manipulate me. There were times in my life where I did not do that, where I was more lenient or giving or you know, overgiving. You know, bordering on co-dependent because of fear of aloneness, or whatever. You know, all the things they say, like oh, you’re going to be an old cat lady. I wasn’t worried about being a cat lady, but you know. The different qualities or tendencies that women who choose to exert their boundaries, the consequences of those things you know, they try to make it out to be bad. Like I’ve had so many people be like, try to weaponize the word “single” against me because of my boundaries. Even when I wasn’t single, and I would be like, nah I don’t like that. I don’t like those things, or you know, any of the times when I’m outspoken or defiant about anything, they’ll be like, “oh, you must be single if you act like that.” And I’m like, there are people who don’t require me to be a controlled passive doormat to be in a relationship with me. [20:12] You know? And that’s true for my friendships, too, like people will like… Because I am inflexible about my non-negotiables, they assume other people, other people besides themselves, are not going to be okay with that. But a lot of people really are okay with that, and more people who are, you know, actually good to be in your life are going to respect that quality of you. Instead of you bending every which way to you know, follow their whim, or whatever their bullshit leads them to do. So having boundaries has only been good. It’s been tough, you know, because parts of it, you have to rebuild your friendship circles and stuff like that. Because you lose people who, you know, you didn’t really need in the first place. So it’s not really much of a loss. But it can feel like it when, you know, you’re releasing tons of people all at once. But every time you let go of somebody who’s not good for you, it creates space for so many more wonderful people to be in community with you. And the more in alignment you are with your best self and your best interests, the better the people are that are going to come into your sphere. So having those boundaries has only increased my quality of life and quality of relationships. 

[music fades in] 

[21:41] Kat: There’s so many boxes that we come into the world with that are like a sort of baggage that we have to shed in order to see ourselves as human even at points. 

Imagine: Mmhmmm. 

Kat: And so did you find yourself early on in life that you found yourself like, ah shit, they put me in a box? [laughs] And you had to like un-do the box? And do you find yourself, sort of, yeah, how do you feel about some of the boxes that you came into the world with? And what are your relationships with some of those boxes? That’s a really abstract question, so I hope that makes sense. 

[22:12] Imagine: I feel like it’s a continuous process because sometimes you don’t even know about these boxes until later, you know? Some of these boxes other people will have to point them out to you that they even exist. Or you know, these outside perceptions of you. I think I’ve always done a really good job of just rejecting them. 

Kat: Yeah. 

Imagine: And a lot of times I do it… I remember when I was in 7th or 8th grade, I used to color my hair all the time. And it was much, much bigger than it is now. Like it was huge, it was like this big, colorful hair. And that was against the dress code. And I had a couple friends who also had colorful hair, and they were getting in trouble, too. So we talked to one of our English teachers, and she was telling us about abortion stuff where they would put, “my body, my choice” and she told us we should make these t-shirts that say, “my hair, my choice.” But we somehow messed up the message. So we made t-shirts that said, “my body, my choice” and wore them to school with our bright, colorful hair. So I’ve always kind of just gone against whatever. 

[23:28] Kat: Did you grow up going to like private schools or schools that required a dress code? 

Imagine: Well, public schools have dress codes. 

Kat: Awh snap. I never had a school where hair color was a thing. Yeah, that’s maybe just a little, a few years or whatever we have between us, more strict in schools. 

[23:50] Imagine: Yeah, I don’t  think people, like they don’t now. But I was definitely one of the first age brackets where, you know, parents were letting their 10-year-olds dye their hair. 

Kat: Yeah. 

Imagine: Now it’s just normal. Now these kids have rainbow mohawks and stuff like that in second grade and it’s awesome. 

[24:10] Kat: Yeah, yeah I definitely know what you’re talking about. I’ve heard parents or whatever talking about elementary school students, like, “oh, I can’t believe that parent let their kid dye their hair pink, like...they’re going to get brain cancer,” or something like that. Really kind of severe and likely untrue statements… [laughs] 

Imagine: Yeah, why would you wish that on a child? That’s horrible. That’s another thing with being immaculate with your language, like I don’t even like saying stuff like that…Yeah. 

[24:38] Kat: So this whole conversation we’re having… I saw this post that you made on Instagram which felt very quintessential for the way that you’re using your social media platform. You look beautiful in this photo, and you have your hair all done, it’s pink, I can’t remember the whole thing. But it's slick, it gives me kind of like flapper vibes, it gives me just so many good vibes. And I read the description, and you’re talking about, you need to see your body because you need to know what your breasts look like, because if your body changes or you get breast cancer, like you want to know! And so, it was sort of this educational moment, this opportunity you’re creating in this post, and people looking at it are going to be thinking a million different things, but most of them are not really thinking about that sort of awareness, or that sort of education. So it’s really surprising, and it’s really beautiful the way that you’re using your platform. [25:30] I’m really just curious about your self expression and the way you present yourself in the world. And I’m not even sure where to start with it because you change your hair a lot, so what is self expression and beauty and fashion, what does that really mean for you? And yeah, what has it meant for you throughout your life? 

[25:50] Imagine: Well, I am my favorite canvas. I am my first canvas. I was an only child until I was 16. So a lot of people ask me how I got into nail art. I started painting my own nails when I was four years old. Cuz it was something I could do by myself. So a lot of this that I do, you know, my personal expression and things like that, comes from that. It’s something I can do by myself. And now getting older, turning it, you know, making it important as an act of self-care. And the platforms that we have now to share that stuff, making it art, making it information. I guess a natural progression of how I’ve always been. I used to have really wild style. Like I went through a lot of different phases. Like a rockabilly phase, I used to play in punk bands. I’ve done a lot of stuff in my life that people don’t even really know about now, even the people who know me now who just see this I guess more glamor, and beauty and art stuff, there’s been so much even before that. There’s activism and music and shit, what else did I do? I don’t know, sports. I am fairly athletic.  But yeah, self expression. I just… I feel like I’ve been asked similar questions before. [27:18] I did a project a long time ago and I got a quote from Betty Page, and it was like, I was just always me. And that’s all I knew. Like I didn’t know who else to be or any other way to be than just me. I don’t know the exact words, but that was the sentiment of it. Like I don’t know any other way to be except for myself. 

[27:38] Kat: So I’m curious about the way you grew up, too. Did your parents always encourage you to just be yourself, do you, express yourself the way you wanted to? How did that manifest itself early in your life, if that was the case? Or if it wasn’t the case and you were just expressing yourself? 

[27:56] Imagine: Yeah, for the most part I had almost, you know, as much autonomy as a child could really have without it being potentially hazardous. I don’t know any other way to grow. I mean, I’ve seen the outcome of other people’s childhoods where they did not have that expression, or that freedom of expression. You know, being able to choose their own outfits, being able to, you know, experiment with their hair and stuff like that. I know people who were not allowed to cut their hair. I cut my hair off for the first time when I was nine years old. My hair was three-quarters of an inch long, which is about how long it is now, maybe a bit longer. [laughs] After that, I started experimenting more with my hair. I got different color, Pomades, and I would have copper hair, slicked to the side, neon orange cargo pants. Just random stuff, I was living at the Goodwill. Like just getting all kinds of shit. I used to have a massive, massive vintage collection that I acquired in high school. To the point that I had an online store when I was about 15 or 16. Yeah, my parents have always encouraged whatever I wanted to do, except for gymnastics. That’s the only thing I didn’t get to do, but that’s it. 

[29:15] Kat: [laughs] Yeah. 

Imagine: That’s it, that’s literally the only thing I didn’t get to try. 

Kat: Yeah that’s pretty solid. If that’s the one thing, that’s a solid amount of autonomy for a kid, like that’s really cool. Of course with this project the only thing that holds these portraits together in a way, or that unifies them or makes them cohesive, is of course that they’re all people. So it’s all about people and self-presentation and the way we think about ourselves. And also the way that we relate in some ways to the boxes we’re put in. And some people create whole identities based around what they’re not, and I think it’s really beautiful the way that you kind of talked about celebrating who you are and what you are and not building yourself around things you’re in opposition to necessarily. 

[30:05] Kat: Another thing that relates this body of work into portraits is all the people are of African descent, African diasporic, Black, whatever you want to call it. However these people identify, that’s part of the work, too. So what has your journey been in relating to your own Blackness? Do you call it that? How do you sort of describe that part of yourself? 

[30:28] Imagine: Yeah, I’m just Black. Growing up a lot of people tried to distance me from my Blackness as a result of their own anti-Blackness. You know? You know those people who are like, “oh, you’re not really Black,” or only the good kind of Black, or “you’re one of the good ones.” You know, that kind of bullshit. Or “you’re not really Black, you’re mixed.” As if that’s better, or different, or whatever. But really it’s just different versions of anti-Blackness. And once I understood those microaggressions, I could reject them. Because for the longest time, well not the longest time, probably up until like 7th grade, I just went along with that. Which is way earlier than most people realize that shit is bullshit. 

[31:15] Kat: Yeah.

Imagine: You know, people trying to figure out what percent this and that you are. And all that stuff, it’s gross. Now we have Ancestry DNA, you can literally find out what percent. But you know, when people are like, “oh, well you’re 12.5 percent German, you’re not really Black,” or you know, whatever. I don’t like that stuff. I am a whole person. Oooh, I just thought of something important. When I was in college, I had this professor for a class called Music in Latin American Culture, and part of the class, we talked a lot about race. The different racial dynamics in the different countries that we talked about because that informs the music and the culture a lot. We talked about the differences in how race is perceived and expressed in those countries versus the United States. So like that man for example, that professor, he was a lighter skinned man, like you know, pretty white presenting. But his brother has brown skin. In America, they would be considered the same race because they came from the same parents. But where he’s from, they would be considered different races even though they’re brothers, just based on presentation alone. And what he said that always really stood out to me was, “You cannot be described as a product of your parents. You are something new.” So that really helped solidify my identity as being Black. Because really what do you see? [32:43] If we’re going to base race off just skin type, I’m fucking Black, you know? Like, sometimes people are like, “oh, well you look mixed.” And I’m like, “with what?” And they’re like, “I don’t know.” And I’m like, “Black?” And they’re like, “yeah…” Cuz I’m Black. 

[32:58] Kat: Yeah. 

[33:00] Imagine: They’re like, “but what else?” And I’m like, if you can’t tell what the other, whatever else there is, then it’s negligible. As I’ve gotten older, I don't’ get asked that kind of stuff so much anymore. And I think also, the widespread Blackfishing kind of contributes to that, too. There’s been so many debates about the Rachel Dolezals and all them, all the Instagramers who are Blackfishing. And they don’t look like me, you know? 

[33:30] Kat: When I was growing up, and even as a teenager and late high school, I would get asked, “What are you?” Which is just… I hate that question. I’m a person, like I am a fucking person. And that should not be the first thing you ask me at a dinner party. 

Imagine: It’s weird. It’s weird. 

Kat: So weird! I find that more and more, I get that less. And I hope it’s because we’re creating a culture where that shit’s unacceptable. That’s what I’m hoping is what’s happening. 

[33:58] Imagine: I think also people’s experiences are more diverse, you know? If you have only one idea of what Black people can look like, then you are going to be confused when you see somebody, you know. But when you have seen so many different kinds of people, it’s like, you know, you’re just like, oh that’s just another one of them. 

[34:18] Kat: Thinking about Black liberation and thinking about your own liberation, too, if that’s how specific you want to get, how do we free us? How do we free us and what does that look like to you? 

34:32] Imagine: Happiness. Prioritizing joy and prioritizing self love. The most liberating thing you can do is love yourself. The most radical thing you can do as a Black person is prioritize your joy. Because there are so many systems in place that are supposed to keep us down, supposed to keep us miserable, depressed, addicted, isolated, all this stuff, you know? Everything that’s antithetical to thriving and joy and community and you know, love. We live in a culture of lovelessness. Being miserable is the status quo. So the most radical thing you can do as a Black person is be joyful. 

[music comes up] 

[35:18] Kat: You should follow Imagine on Instagram. If you want to follow her personal account, it’s @thisisimagine, all lowercase, no spaces, no underlines, just @thisisimagine. And then if you want to have more information, see more images and shop her stuff that her and Simone organize, it is @berrygodmuvas. B-E-R-R-Y-G-O-D-M-U-V-A-S on Instagram. And then there’s her nail page, and y’all, I’m just constantly floored by these nails. Like a tiny little portrait of someone’s face, Beyoncé nails. There’s one of this tiny little portrait of Michael Jackson. Ugh, stunning. So her nail page is @justimaginenails and it’s exactly how it sounds, J-U-S-T-I-M-A-G-I-N-E-N-A-I-L-S. So check that out, book an appointment, get your nails done. A few credits as well: I want to say thank you to my studio assistant Kossi Kouakou for editing some of this podcast for the first draft. And I want to say thank you to the musician whose music I downloaded for this episode. The song you hear in this podcast is called “Any When You Say” by Cheel. I hope you enjoyed this and I have a conversation with Addis Browne, who works at Roots Collective, Joelle Wellansa Sandfort who is an artist in Omaha, Nebraska, and a sort of naturalist. And another conversation with Artie Mack, who is an artist and he works at JuJu’s Vegan and is a huge advocate for the hard of hearing and deaf community. I have all these conversations lined up and actually these conversations are already completed and I’m just working on editing them and sharing them. But I believe I’ve gotten better at interviewing, so that’s good. A little bit less of that hyper nervousness is coming your way, so get excited for that. [laughs] And if you don’t already, you can follow me on Instagram at @katharen.wiese. My first name is spelled kind of weird, it’s K-A-T-H-A-R-E-N period W-I-E-S-E. And I hope I see you at the next episode, or catch you at the next episode, hear you, whatever it is. 

[music comes up] 


[38:02] Kat: Mixing for this podcast was done by Samuel Segrist. I edited this podcast. And the notes and transcription was done by Gabriella Parsons. Go team!